I have already posted on this subject today (if you want to read this first, I'll wait here), and have copied my initial response to my Daily Digest (*taps toes, waiting for you to read this too)
After having gone back to check for updates (which there were. Sarah Newton MP distanced herself quite vociferously against the dishonest practices of Coalition for Marriage), I read a comment by a person who named themselves barrtribe. Have left the spelling and grammatical mistakes as they were presented.
Monday, January 14 2013, 3:29PM
“Missing the point here as usual. The point of the debate is mainly about Christians being forced by a minority; to marry same sex people in church against their beliefs. Their choice and their right under law; to follow the teachings of their beliefs.
It has been said that the majority are for. The truth is the majority dont give a fig.
People want same sex marriage fine its up to them.
I happen to believe it is wrong according to christian teaching and the teachings of islam plus a few others.
The supporters of this bang on about their rights and freedom yet they want to take away the rights and freedom of those who do not support same sex marriage.
If you dont want to follow the teachings of christ/ don't believe in christian theology why do you want to get married in church. It makes no sense.
The only thing it proves is that you are trying to tear christianiy down.
If you are really about peoples right to choose the you are going against your own argument.
If you are a christian who is gay; God loves you the same as the next person.
Do you really think you an just take away or ignore what you dont like in the word; just beause it doesn't suit your life choices.
Shall we ignore do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not covert another mans wife etc etc.
If your not a christian; just beause you don't believe in God or devine judgement doesn't meen you wont be judged on your actions acording to God word.
Showing God's love to people does not mean; condone everything that seems right to man and ignore the teaching of christ.
Look at Sodom and gomorrah they did what they though was right in their eyes and God wiped out every trace of them to serve as a warning for future generations.
Non of the above is written from a stance of bigotry, hate etc.It is written from a belief base You will see from previous posts here that I have good, loved friend's and family who are gay.
It is written to show that we all have our belief's and follow a "code" in life christian, atheist or other and currently we have a freedom at the moment to follow that choice.
If the argument is really about gay people's right to marry why is it being made about you right to be married in a church.
If you are a Christian who is gay, then you will now the teaching of the one you follow so why would you want to support a move that is against your teachings.
If you are not a christian, why would you want to get married in a church before a God you dont believe in.
Just an aside I would lie to welcome Malc4 and partner to Cornwall . I hope you find new friends and settle into the Par community well.”
I just had to respond:
“I fear it is you that is missing the point, making straw men arguments you cannot possible defend.
1) 'The point of the debate is mainly about Christians being forced by a minority; to marry same sex people in church against their beliefs.' There is a clear majority that favour same sex marriage, including a good proportion of Christians. This has been consistently shown to be the case in all but the Catholic's survey into it (which was woefully inadequate, but not unexpected). Also, the push for equality before the law is not about forcing Christians to marry same sex couples against their beliefs; it is about affording equal rights for ALL. If that were not a large enough mangling of reality, you show your ignorance of the proposed law by overlooking(?) the fact that the Government has no intention of forcing any church to accept same sex marriages. So saying that 'a small minority' is forcing Christians to (using your words) 'marry same sex people in church against their beliefs' is demonstrably wrong.
2) Almost in the same breath, you make this statement, 'People want same sex marriage fine its up to them'. Yes, it is, but I repeat, the proposed law does not force religious organisations to accept them. There will be churches that allow it, and those that don't will be undoubtedly swamped by the influx of this majority you speak of that oppose them.
3) 'I happen to believe it is wrong according to christian teaching and the teachings of islam plus a few others'. You are right on one thing, though; it IS against (the predominant) Christian and other religious organisation's teachings, which is why Government cannot force any church to accept such a scenario.
Are you noticing a pattern yet?
4) 'The supporters of this bang on about their rights and freedom yet they want to take away the rights and freedom of those who do not support same sex marriage'. Yes, we bang on about rights and freedoms. Of course we do, because before anything else we can talk about, our rights and freedoms should be intrinsic and not subject to politicking. You speak of your rights and freedoms as if they are different from anyone else's; they are not. You are still free to disagree with same sex marriage all you want. I would even defend your right to be offended. However, being offended is not something we should - nor do - legislate. I find all forms of religious thought offensive, but I still strongly believe in the rights of those that do hold a religious belief, to be free from the persecution of those that really are out to get them. The thing is, no one is 'out to get them'. It is a smokescreen behind which certain people hide to give their arguments (such as they are) more kudos. The threat to your religious freedom does not exist from people like me. It exists only when the church you subscribe to falls into line with the majority of the population. Soap-box them, instead, and leave us proponents of same sex marriage fight for the an equality you clearly oppose.
5) 'If you dont want to follow the teachings of christ/ don't believe in christian theology why do you want to get married in church. It makes no sense'. They're pretty buildings? I don't know. A token of mutual love and commitment maybe? Whatever people's reasons, that is not a concern for you. The fact is, they have their reasons, and they have nothing to do with you, and do neither threaten your faith, nor minimise the importance you place on it. Your position, though, is to deny that which you take for granted.
6) 'The only thing it proves is that you are trying to tear christianiy down'. Really? How so? As much as I would like to see Christianity disappear, allowing same sex marriage in law does nothing towards that end.
Running out of space here. So show me where Jesus said anything about same sex marriage or homosexuality? Beware. I am familiar with biblical contexts. I'll be waiting.”
I didn't want to add another post for the reason that I fear it would not be well received, but this is my blog and I can post what I like without being censored or limited to an arbitrary number of characters.
6) continued... You confuse the Orwellian thought-crime of eradicating Christianity - which no sane person professes is even possible - with the concept that people can freely say that they disagree with your position. And as has been pointed out, the majority disagrees with you.
7) 'If you are really about peoples right to choose the you are going against your own argument'. It would have helped if you had pointed out how this is so. As you didn't, I shall try and interpret your meaning. My apologies if I have got it wrong.It appears that you feel that by allowing same sex marriage, you lose your right to chose, but I could not disagree with you more.
a. How does allowing same sex marriage affect your personal religious beliefs? There is certainly nothing about it that would change your position on faith; is there? If there is, then your faith cannot be too strong. If it is strong enough, why whine on about it?
b. If the law allowing same sex marriage is passed, and your church continues to reject same sex couples at their ceremonies, how have your rights, freedoms or beliefs been compromised? Even if your church does accept same sex couples for weddings, you can choose to leave it for another church that reflects your own sentiment on the issue. You are still in full control of your rights, freedoms and beliefs, and the possibility that others may enjoy the same benefits you do still does nothing to your detriment.
8) 'Do you really think you an just take away or ignore what you dont like in the word; just beause it doesn't suit your life choices.' You really want to go there? Let's look at how marriage is defined in the Old Testament. Shall we go with Solomon? How about Onan? Abraham, perhaps? Or his grandson? You're probably not a Levite, right? Or a female prisoner of war? Maybe you are a rapist, then?
9) 'Shall we ignore do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not covert another mans wife etc etc.' Seems to me that man has been doing that since before Christianity was invented. If you are looking for where we get our morals from in that statement, you should first explain why the only difference between believers and non-believers when it comes to this adultery or divorce is that it is more prevalent in Christians [US source].
10) 'If your not a christian; just beause you don't believe in God or devine judgement doesn't meen you wont be judged on your actions acording to God word.' True, but neither does it mean that we will. Not even you.
11) 'Look at Sodom and gomorrah they did what they though was right in their eyes and God wiped out every trace of them to serve as a warning for future generations.' Well that is for us heathens to decide, isn't it? I am sure if you are a good man - like Lot - you have nothing to fear from God raining brimstone down upon your town, because He will guide you and your family away from it. You can even get to drunkenly procreate with your daughters afterwards!
12) 'Non of the above is written from a stance of bigotry, hate etc.It is written from a belief base'. Unless bigotry means stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. Oh! It does. And before you call me the bigot, bear in mind I have ripped you position to pieces, because it is indefensible and not because I don't allow you your opinion.
13) 'It is written to show that we all have our belief's and follow a "code" in life christian, atheist or other and currently we have a freedom at the moment to follow that choice.' We still do and will. It is called freedom of religion. The proposed same sex marriage law does not touch on that. Nor is it allowed to.
14) 'If the argument is really about gay people's right to marry why is it being made about you right to be married in a church.' It isn't. You made that up.
You may say that God loves everyone equally - you may even say you do yourself - but the reality is that you sit within an establishment that guarantees that one set of people can enjoy certain rights, and another cannot be afforded the same. It is gut-wrenchingly immoral, and you should be ashamed to hold such a belief.